STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA                                          BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

COUNTY OF HENDERSON                                                                                    MAY 6, 2002


The Henderson County Board of Commissioners met for a regularly scheduled meeting on Monday, May 6, 2002 at 5:30 p.m. in the Commissioners= Conference Room of the Henderson County Office Building at 100 North King Street, Hendersonville, North Carolina.


Present were: Chairman William Moyer, Vice-Chair Marilyn Gordon, Commissioner Grady Hawkins, Commissioner Charlie Messer, Commissioner Don Ward, County Manager David E. Nicholson, County Attorney Angela S. Beeker, and Clerk to the Board Elizabeth W. Corn. 


Staff present were: Finance Director Carey McLelland, Planning Director Karen C. Smith, Assistant County Attorney Jennifer O. Jackson, Assistant to the County Manager Selena D. Coffey, Fire Marshal Rocky Hyder, Planning Director Karen C. Smith, Tax Collector Terry Lyda, Delinquent Tax Collector Darlene Burgess, Public Health Director Tom Bridges, Environmental Health Manager Robert Smith and Public Information Officer Chris S. Coulson.


Deputy Clerk\Volunteer Coordinator Amy Brantley was present through Nominations.



Chairman Moyer welcomed all in attendance and called the meeting to order.



Commissioner Grady Hawkins led the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag.



County Manager David E. Nicholson gave the invocation.



Chairman Moyer commended the participants and sponsors for the Relay for Life event that was held on Saturday, May 4, 2002 at Patton Park.  Ms. Karen Smith noted that over $100,000 was raised this year, which topped last year=s goal.  Ms. Smith credited the success of the event to the citizens who participated in the event, many of which are cancer survivors, the community and the businesses that sponsored the event.   


Chairman Moyer thanked Ms. Smith on behalf of the Board and the citizens of Henderson County for her efforts in the event.



Chairman Moyer pulled Item D, Sale of Surplus Vehicles, from the Staff Reports.  


Under Discussion Items, Chairman Moyer added an Update for the Mud Creek Watershed Restoration Council; Vote of an Acting Chairman for the period of May 15 to May 21, 2002 due to Chairman Moyer and Vice-Chair Gordon traveling to Mexico; a resolution from the North Carolina County Commissioners= Association requesting action by the Board regarding Legislative Action; an update on the North Carolina County Commissioners= Association regional meeting in Lenoir; and an update on the April 30th meeting of the Western North Carolina Caucus Executive Committee held here.


There were no further adjustments.  Chairman Moyer made a motion to approve the agenda with those adjustments.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.



Chairman Moyer pulled for comment Item K, Proclamation-Strive Not To Drive Week and Item L, Proclamation-Small Business Week. 


Commissioner Hawkins requested to pull Item G, Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Council for discussion by the Board.


Chairman Moyer made a motion to approve Consent Agenda Items A, B, C, E, F, H, J, and I.   All voted in favor and the motion carried.


The Consent Agenda consisted of the following:


Review and Approval of Minutes

Minutes were approved for the following Commissioners= meetings:

March 21, 2002, special called meeting

April 1, 2002, regular meeting

April 11, 2002, special called meeting


Correction to Minutes of December 19, 2001

In the minutes for the Commissioners= meeting of December 19, 2001, the tax releases and tax refunds were omitted.  The minutes were corrected to include those items.


Tax Collector=s Report

Tax Collector Terry F. Lyda presented the tax report.  Deputy Tax Collector Darlene B. Burgess presented the report on the status of delinquent tax collections to date.


Financial Report-March 2002-Cash Balance Report

This was presented for information only. 


Henderson County Public Schools Financial Report-March 2002

This was presented for information only.


Update on Status of Improvement Guarantee for Oleta Falls, Phase II

On October 23, 2001, the Board of Commissioners approved a subdivision improvement guarantee for Waterside Properties, LLC, for various sections of Oleta Falls with a proposed completion date of April 30, 2002.  Staff advised the Board that the developer had not completed the improvements because the Commissioners had not completed the quasi-judicial hearing for the variance request. Therefore, the County would hold the funds deposited by Waterside Properties for the improvement guarantee until the matter was resolved.


Amendment to Lakewood RV Vested Rights Ordinance

On April 11, 2002, the Board of Commissioners approved an ordinance, which granted a development vested right to William F. and Barbara Hoffman that allows them to complete the final phase of Lakewood RV Resort.  At the time of adoption, there was some Board discussion concerning whether or not the Hoffmans agreed that the required row of Leland Cypress trees along the southern boundary of the subject property would be sufficient to protect them from the possible effects of the drift spray and noise of the wind machines operating on the adjacent apple orchard.  According to Attorney Lex Veazey who represents the Hoffmans, the Hoffmans agreed to that condition and to have the Ordinance amended to reflect that statement.  Staff presented the amendment for Board approval.



Public Records Disposal and Destruction

Finance Director Carey McLelland submitted a request to destroy financial records on which the required retention period had expired.


Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Grants

The Henderson County Juvenile Crime Prevention Council (JCPC) approved funding for local juvenile crime prevention programs.  Funding of $213,861 for Fiscal Year 2002-2003 was available through the State of North Carolina but each program required a 30% match.  The programs approved by the JCPC were:  Trend Mental Health Crime Prevention Team; Project Challenge; Spectrum Youth Shelter; Youth Mediation Services; Psychological Services for Juvenile Court; and JCPC for administrative costs.  The grant application was accompanied by an annual plan for juvenile crime prevention and intervention services.  Staff requested approval from the Board to submit the grant application.


Commissioner Hawkins posed several questions about the required 30% match.  Mr. Nicholson stated the County receives $85,000 in JCPC funds and the County would have to match 30% of that or approximately $27,000.  The grant application deadline was May 15th so the Board would have to make a decision about the match before the matter could be discussed in the budget workshops in June.  Further discussion on this matter by the Board was suspended until later in the meeting to permit Mr. Nicholson time to obtain information that the Board requested about the required match amount.   


Resolution - Strive Not to Drive Week

Chairman Moyer noted that the Partnership for Health and ECO presented a request to the Commissioners to proclaim May 12 through May 18 as Strive Not To Drive Week.   Commissioner Hawkins and Commissioner Ward expressed concern over some of the language in the proposed proclamation.  Chairman Moyer made a motion to approve the proclamation as presented.  Chairman Moyer, Commissioner Gordon, and Commissioner Messer voted in favor of the motion.  Commissioner Hawkins and Commissioner Ward voted in opposition of the motion.  The motion carried three to two.    


Resolution - Small Business Week

Chairman Moyer read a resolution proclaiming the week of May 6, 2002 through May 10, 2002 as Small Business Week in Henderson County.  He noted that Commissioner Gordon, Commissioner Messer and Commissioner Ward are small business owners. 


Chairman Moyer made a motion to approve the proclamation as presented.  All voted in favor and the motion carried. 



Notification of Vacancies

Chairman Moyer advised the Board of these vacancies:

1.         Henderson County Board of Health - 3 vacancies

2.         Land-of-Sky Regional Council Advisory Council on Aging - 1 vacancy

3.         Juvenile Crime Prevention Council - 3 vacancies

4.         Mountain Area Workforce Development Board - 4 vacancies

5.         Social Services Board - 1 vacancy



Chairman Moyer reminded the Board of the following vacancies and opened the floor to nominations:



1. Equalization and Review - 1 vacancy

The term for position 8 had expired.  No nominations were received so this vacancy was rolled to the next meeting.


2. Juvenile Crime Prevention Council - 2 vacancies

Position10 was due to a resignation.  Position 26 was due to Legislative change.

There were no nominations so these vacancies were rolled to the next meeting.


3. Henderson County Board of Health - 2 vacancies

Positions 3 and 5 were due to expiring terms.  There were no nominations so these vacancies were rolled to the next meeting.


4. Nursing/Adult Care Home Community Advisory Committee - 5 vacancies

Terms expire in 2002 for positions 2, 3, 12, 13, and 18.  There were no nominations so these vacancies were rolled to the next meeting.


5. Community Child Protection Team - 1 vacancy

Position 4 was due to resignation.   There were no nominations so this vacancy was rolled to the next meeting.


6. Zoning Board of Adjustment, Fletcher - 1 vacancy

There were no nominations so this vacancy was rolled to the next meeting.


7. EMS Quality Management Committee - 1 vacancy

Position 9 requires an individual from a medical facility.  Chair Moyer nominated Susan Padgett, a pharmacist, for that position as recommended by EMS Director, Terry Layne.  There were no further nominations.  Commissioner Ward made a motion to suspend the rules and appoint Ms. Padgett to that position.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.





At a previous meeting, the Commissioners directed staff to get a status report from the City of Hendersonville on the Oklawaha Greenway Project.  Mr. Nicholson summarized the status as stated in a letter he had received from City Manager Chris Carter.  The City was going to spend the enhancement funds of $111,552 received from NCDOT on the eastern side of Mud Creek in Jackson Park.  Because Phase I would cost more than originally proposed, work on Fourth Avenue would not be done, which is a major change in the project.  As required by the NCDOT enhancement grant, a three party Memorandum of Understanding agreement with the City, the County and the Greenways Commission was executed.  The Greenway Commission would develop the project and the City of Hendersonville will take over the bidding and manage the project to its completion.  The City had experienced some problems with the development of the project and some of the costs associated with it.  However, the City Manager assured the Board that the City would continue with the project.   


County Attorney Angela Beeker advised the Board that the Memorandum of Understanding should be amended to reflect the change in the layout of the greenways. 


Jon Antrim, Chairman of the Greenways Commission, explained the Commission was still collecting information.   The Commission was awaiting a visit by the Fish and Wildlife Division to determine if there were any endangered plants or wildlife.  When that assessment has been completed, the Greenway Commission will come to the Commissioners for approval to move forward.  Mr. Antrim further explained if the trail had continued on the other side of Mud Creek, it would have been necessary to erect a bridge across Mud Creek, which would have been an expensive item.  By taking the east side alignment, the bridge at Glover Street could accommodate pedestrian and bicycle traffic without a big safety issue.   


Mr. Antrim stated the Commission has enough money to do the scaled-back version without the Fourth Avenue piece and without the upgrade of the Mud Creek nature path from Seventh Avenue to Patton Park.   


When the surveyor has completed the profile of the project, the Greenway Commission will bring that information back to the Commissioners for their review. 


Chairman Moyer thanked Mr. Antrim for the update on the Greenways project.



Public Health Director Tom Bridges sought direction from the Board about the Overtime Pay policy for Environmental Health staff.  Wastewater permits, such as septic tanks and wells, traditionally had been issued within two weeks by utilizing overtime pay for the Environmental Health staff.  However, the current backlog for the permit specialists was three weeks. The demand for such permits was continuing to rise. With the summer season approaching, other programs requiring overtime would be the migrant camps, mosquito control, and swimming pools.  The Health Department was granted only $7500 for overtime in the budget last year.  As of December 2001, $12,608.22 had been expended for overtime, leaving a negative balance in that line item.  Mr. Bridges, at the request of the Board of Health, requested authorization of an additional $4,000 to be allocated from the Health Department=s contingency funds into the overtime budget line item in order to stay current with the permit demands. 


Mr. Nicholson recommended the Board give the authorization to transfer $4,000 from the General Health Department budget to the Environmental Health budget to cover this overtime situation. 


Commissioner Gordon made a motion that the Board approve the transfer of up to $4,000 for additional overtime from the General Health Department budget to the Environmental Health budget for the period of May and June of this fiscal year to deal with overtime in this permitting crisis.  


All voted in favor and the motion carried. 



Assistant County Attorney Jennifer Jackson advised the Board that the Henderson County Tax Collector and Delinquent Tax Collector were asking for authorization from the Board to utilize a mortgage style foreclosure method of collecting taxes in addition to the in rem method.  The in rem method typically works very well and is a less costly method to foreclose.  However, under certain circumstances the mortgage-style foreclosure would be warranted.  Ms. Jackson had prepared a resolution to authorize the use of both the in rem and mortgage-style foreclosure methods. 


After major discussion by the Board on this matter, Chairman Moyer made a motion that the Board approve the resolution authorizing the Tax Collector to use the mortgage-style method of foreclosures as he deems appropriate and in accordance with the law. 


Chairman Moyer, Commissioner Gordon, Commissioner Messer and Commissioner Ward voted in favor of the motion.  Commissioner Hawkins uttered the sole aye opposing the motion.  The motion passed four to one.


Chairman Moyer commended Mr. Lyda and Ms. Burgess for their efforts in collecting delinquent taxes on behalf of the County.



Dotty Effinger, 11 Nix Road, Hendersonville, NC- Ms. Effinger advocated for the Guardian Ad Litem program to be spared from budget cuts.  She expressed dismay about the public criticism of the DSS Director and the District 29 Management Director stated in an article in the Times-News of Sunday, May 5, 2002 regarding an abused child case. 



Fire Marshal Rocky Hyder informed the Board that staff proposed minor amendments to the Fire Prevention Ordinance to update references to the newly adopted Fire Prevention Code of North Carolina.  Also clarification was made on the Fire Marshal=s authority regarding burning bans.  Permit fees now required by the new NC Fire Prevention Code were included for operational permits, most of which were associated with new construction of sprinkler systems or fire alarm systems.  Required operational permits for hazardous businesses are assessed a $50 fee.


Commissioner Hawkins expressed concern about the authority of the Fire Marshal to impose immediate banning burns without making notice to the public.  Mr. Hyder explained the particular wording related to that authority was chosen to accurately reflect and mirror what the State has in place to be able to revoke burning bans as well as what the Fire Code states now.  The terminology is used in the event there is a need to quickly remedy or mitigate a problem.  The local Fire Marshal coordinates burning bans with the State issued bans.  Mr. Hyder does not issue a burning ban without first getting agreement from the County Forest Ranger that one is merited.  When burning bans are imposed, the Fire Marshal= office broadcasts that information to the community via media outlets.  Mr. Hyder explained that all burning permits issued prior to the burning ban are suspended during that period of time.  The County=s burning permits are valid for three days only but some of the Forest Service burning permits are valid for 30 days.    There is no fee for a County burning permit because it is not a required permit under the North Carolina Fire Prevention Code under local authority.   


Commissioner Hawkins made a motion to adopt the amendments to the Fire Prevention Code as presented to be effective July 1, 2002.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.



Chairman Moyer stated the NC Division of Water Quality had been conducting studies of the Mud Creek Watershed with respect to the assessment of the health of the streams.  At a recent meeting, the Restoration Council requested that a representative from the Board of Commissioners sit with the Council in the development of the recommendations.  The Council meetings are held on the second Tuesday of each month from 9:00 am until 11:30 am at the Soil and Water Conservation District Office.  The next meeting would be May 14th. 


Commissioner Ward accepted the appointment to the Council but stated he may not be able to attend meetings regularly due to business conflicts.   


Commissioner Hawkins agreed to attend Council meetings in Commissioner Ward=s absence.




Chairman Moyer and Commissioner Gordon would be traveling to Mexico on business with other local officials from May 15th to May 21st, so it would be necessary to appoint an Acting Chairman and Vice-Chair during their absence.  Ms. Beeker had recommended the election of a temporary chairman and vice-chairman be made for that specified period of time during a special-called meeting, and that proper notice of the meeting be given in advance.  This matter would be added to the agenda for the special-called meeting scheduled for May 14th to conduct the public hearing on the NCDOT Secondary Road Paving Program and the notice would be amended accordingly.    




Chairman Moyer presented for the Board=s consideration a draft resolution, as recommended by the North Carolina Association of County Commissioners, seeking legislation that would restrict the authority of the State government to withhold local revenues that the General Assembly has provided to units of local government.  The NCACC would also seek a constitutional amendment to accomplish this objective. 


Chairman Moyer made a motion for the Board to adopt the resolution for purposes of presenting it to the North Carolina Association of County Commissioners so pressure would be put on the State to get this legislation or if necessary, a constitutional amendment. 


All voted in favor and the motion carried.




Chairman Moyer informed the Board that he and Mr. Nicholson attended the regional meeting of the North Carolina Association of County Commissioners= in Lenoir.  The major topic was budget problems.  Three alternatives were discussed, but no final decision was made.  One alternative was the counties can institute the one-half cent sales tax early and the State would keep the reimbursements.  The second alternative would be that the State would keep the one-half cent sales tax revenue and reimbursements, but they would allow the counties to enact an additional one-half cent sales tax so the counties, not the State, would be the entities actually adopting the additional half cent.  The third alternative, which was favored by a number of the counties present, was that the State would take over complete funding of Medicaid and keep all of the monies.  The overall feeling at that meeting was the State would force the counties to take the action and suffer the pain of raising taxes or use their fund balances until this crisis is abated. 


Western North Carolina Caucus Executive Committee meeting

Chairman Moyer gave a status report of the Executive Committee of the Western North Carolina Caucus which met here on April 30th.  The primary topic of that meeting was the state funding issue and the importance of getting the problems worked out with the State.  One idea discussed was for the counties to gain more flexibility with some of the State mandated rules and regulations.  For example, restaurants with consistent A sanitation ratings could be inspected less often than restaurants with lower sanitation ratings.  That would result in a cost-savings to the State as well as the counties.  Chairman Moyer encouraged the Board members to provide suggestions of areas where such applications could be made or get involved with the Caucus by volunteering to serve on one of the committees. 



Mr. Nicholson noted staff had expressed concern about one of the proposed road names for the public hearing on road names scheduled for May 23rd.  Mr. Hyder feared that the road name ZZYZX would create confusion for emergency dispatch and responders and he had expressed that concern to the residents who proposed this road name.  However, there remained a consensus among the four current property owners on that road for this road name. 


The Commissioners shared Mr. Hyder=s concern and that matter would be addressed during the public hearing.  Staff requested the Board to set a public hearing on the proposed road names for May 23rd at 11:00 am.  Chairman Moyer made a motion to set that public hearing as requested.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.


Chairman Moyer reminded the Board that two additional meetings would be needed to wrap up the Zoning Ordinance Rewrite before a public hearing could be held on the Ordinance.  At the next Commissioners= meeting, two dates in July would be set.



In accordance with the North Carolina Local Budget and Fiscal Control Act in General Statute 153-A.82, County Manager David E. Nicholson presented his recommended budget for fiscal year 2002-2003.  Mr. Nicholson stated that this budget reflects the county government=s desires to retain a traditionally high-level quality of services during a time of uncertainty concerning our revenues from state government.  He further stated that Henderson County and all local governments across the state are struggling to come to terms with the fiscal and imprudent budget developed by the State General Assembly and Governor Easley=s decision to withhold two hundred nine million dollars that are due to local governments that are currently revenues.  The County has to develop a plan for what happens if we lose the three million two hundred sixty-one thousand three hundred forty-one dollars in our money which came from the intangibles tax reimbursements, the inventory tax reimbursements, and the homestead exemption.  Unfortunately, the true impact of the state=s budget cuts will not be known until after the adoption of our budget.  Mr. Nicholson informed the Board that he included in this budget the State reimbursements.  In the theme of the budget message, Mr. Nicholson urged the Board to review this budget as a bridge between the current fiscal year and fiscal year 2003-2004 where at this point it appears we=re guaranteed to get the article 45 sales tax.  To capitalize on the idea of the bridge, on the front cover of the budget was a picture of Easley Bridge in Blount County Alabama.  Mr. Nicholson noted the poor condition of this bridge and related that to what the County is facing with this budget.


Basically in most cases, the current budget for each department had just been moved into this coming year=s budget.  Very little change was made in the overall budget.


He proposed the ad valorem property tax rate of fifty cents per hundred dollars of valuation be retained with no increase.  Mr. Nicholson had projected into this budget for the current fiscal year for sales tax only a three percent growth because he felt the County would not realize the same revenues in sales tax this year as in previous years due to the economic slowdown.


Mr. Nicholson proposed reorganization for several departments.  He proposed that the Deputy Clerk who was currently being shared in a half-time position with the Human Resources Department be assigned to the Governing Body as a full-time position.  To accommodate the need for a full-time position in the Human Resources Department, a position in the Finance Department would be transferred to the Human Resources Department.  Mr. Nicholson proposed the addition of a sewer collection specialist position to the Finance Department.  Sewer usage fees would be used to pay for that position so there would be no net change to the general county cost.  The Assistant County Attorney had resigned and that position would be reclassified to a paralegal position. 


Mr. Nicholson recommended five new positions be added.  He recommended an additional inspector for the Building Inspections Department to accommodate a new rule of regulation from the Department of Insurance on mobile home inspections.  A full-time position would be needed for the Debt Set-Off program in the Delinquent Tax Collection Office.  Four full-time paramedics would be needed to man the southeast EMS substation.  If the substation does not open, there would be no need to budget full-time staff.  Mr. Nicholson=s fifth recommended position was for a planning technician to meet the rising demands on the Planning Department staff. 


Mr. Nicholson had included an initiative in the budget to reduce costs related to information technology services.  In the past, each department was permitted to purchase hardware, software and information technology services, such as networking, independent of the IT Department.    By combining all those resources into one, the County was able to negotiate a lower contract with a provider.  The Information Technology Department would make the decisions on the purchase of hardware and software under the direction of Mr. Nicholson.  Only the IT Department rather than each department having that authority would authorize information technology services.  These measures would result in a considerable cost savings to the County. 


Mr. Nicholson noted there were considerably less vehicle purchases in this budget than last year.  The same thing was true with regular capital outlay.  He reminded the Board that NCDOT would replace the bridge that=s going into Jackson Park off Fourth Avenue, but the County has to reimburse them. 


Mr. Nicholson=s proposed budget included an eight point three percent increase in current expense funding over the current year for the schools, which was the majority of the County=s new funds in this year=s budget.   He further explained that a large portion of that increase was for five teaching positions that the School Board projected would not be funded by the State.  However, he urged the Board to request the School Board to return the money to the County should they receive the projected State funding.


Mr. Nicholson requested that the Board approve the entire request from the School Board for public school capital of almost two million dollars.  However, to accomplish that Mr. Nicholson put general county money into capital outlay for schools. 


Mr. Nicholson recommended that the services provided by the Youth Development Programs as an emergency shelter for troubled teens be restructured to serve as a DSS foster home.  The cost savings to the County would be over three hundred thousand dollars.  Mr. Nicholson had provided the Board with a list of the pro=s and con=s on that recommendation.


Earlier in the meeting, the Board had delayed continued discussion on the JCPC grant until this portion of the meeting so that Mr. Nicholson could properly address it budget wise.  He recommended the County file the JCPC grant request as planned for the $85,0000.  The money would be used for in placement or out patient services for children in foster care. 


Mr. Nicholson advised the Board that at this point it appears the primary will not occur until after July 1st, funds provided in this current year=s budget for the Board of Elections for personnel and equipment had been rolled into next year and appropriated into the fund balance, then will be re-appropriated back out when the need arises for these funds.


About seventeen and a half positions were frozen in county government to help balance this year=s budget, which will result in a savings of six hundred thousand dollars. 

Mr. Nicholson advised the Board he was recommending the elimination of the dental insurance program, which would result in a cost savings of over two hundred thousand dollars.  If reimbursements were received from the State, the dental benefits would be reinstated. 


Mr. Nicholson informed the Board that he was recommending the closing of the Green River Library branch and reduce the number of hours at the other branches to an average of eight hours a day for six days a week.  He further explained the reason for his selection of the Green River branch was based on the fact it has less usage than the other branches. 


Reduction in or elimination of recreation programs would result in a savings of seventy thousand dollars. 


Mr. Nicholson proposed elimination of ninety-five thousand dollars funding to non-profits if we do not get the reimbursements. 


Two hundred fifty thousand dollars of savings of revenues over expenditures were put into contingency funds. 


Mr. Nicholson was pleased to inform the Board that the current fund balance is at twelve percent.  If reimbursements are not received, Mr. Nicholson recommended that one percent of that fund balance or seven hundred thirty thousand dollars be put into the general budget for this year.  Eleven percent would remain in the fund balance.   


Mr. Nicholson thanked Mr. McLelland and Ms. Coffey for their efforts and assistance in this budget process. 


Chairman Moyer thanked Mr. Nicholson on behalf of the Board for his efforts on this budget. 


Commissioner Hawkins made a motion to adopt the JCPC budget, which was Item G under the Consent Agenda with the recommended amendments as noted by Mr. Nicholson earlier in the meeting.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.



Commissioner Hawkins made a motion to adjourn the meeting.  All voted in favor and the motion carried.  The meeting was adjourned at 7:55 p.m.






Elizabeth W. Corn, Clerk to the Board                        William L. Moyer, Chairman


These minutes were transcribed by Avalina Merrill, Administrative Assistant to the County Manager.